Sliding through to another day's promise.

[silveradept]

As a midweek thought, things weren't bad. Quick, slow, or otherwise, I made it through to the end of the day. I finished Watchmen. That's a damn scary book. I can see immediately why it won a Hugo. It's that good. And it leaves you to think. Because in my mind, while the clock may have moved back a bit, even there, in that world, the villain failed. He didn't necessarily live to see it, but he failed just the same. At least, if things continued along like they have here. It'd be an interesting thing to speculate and write a future history of that world. A good recommendation from those people who said it was worth reading. Now, I'll just ponder the ramifications of the whole thing. And quake with fear.

Especially considering that pacifism doesn't always work as a protest method.

Not in relation: Another person seems to notice that children's authors have some very adult punchlines. I like the connection being drawn between those two. Reminds me of watching Looney Tunes as a child, and then again as an adult - oh, the jokes I missed just by being young. And the ones that zip right over the young now. Luckily, they're like boomerangs - they come back to you eventually.

Read a little bit more of the Star Wars and Philosophy books. They're probably candy compared to what Real Philosophers do, but they're just right for me - I like exploring things without having to bog down in the details too much. It'll get me into trouble when I try to explain anything to someone who knows what they're talking about, but if they're friendly, I'll just use it to further my own limited understanding. Anyway, short entry. Perhaps as an apology for the monstrosities I've cooked up before. Going to bed. (Fragging temple throbs aren't going away, just upping and reducing their intensity.)

Note - comments section contains spoiler-laden discussion of Watchmen. Avoid if you want to be surprised.

Comments

[alfedenzo.livejournal.com]

Spoiler:

One thing I didn't notice until my third time through Watchmen (and you notice something else each time you reread it), was that you know the kid will probably publish Rorschach's journal. And Rorschach's journal might contain enough clues to make it clear that the alien invader was just a hoax. If enough people (or even just the right people) believe the authenticity of its contents, it could undo all of what Adrien was trying to accomplish.

[silveradept]

Nice trick. How'd you do that in the code. Will discuss further, just want to make sure eyes that don't want to see don't.

[greyweirdo.livejournal.com]

Give V for Vendetta a try next. That, in ways, makes Watchmen seem to be a walk in the park.

And just out of curriosity, who exactly are you pegging as the villian in Watchmen? I ask not to be obnoxious but because I've heard arguments for a couple different charecters to be the villian. That book, it depends on how you look at things.

[greyweirdo.livejournal.com]

Just time could undo Adrian's work. I always thought that while he did something, there was still a lot of work ahead to really get the world he was working for.

[alfedenzo.livejournal.com]

<div style="background:black; color: black;">
Spoiler goes here
</div>
The background: black probably isn't necessary in your journal, but for portability... Variants would include also having something like border: thin solid white to make it show up against your black background.

[alfedenzo.livejournal.com]

Dr Manhatten hinted that at the end, pointing out that there isn't an end; that there's no point after which you can say that nothing will go wrong, and that Adrien will have to live with the thought that everything might come undone for the rest of his life.

[silveradept]

Knowing Dr. Manhattan's unique abilities, I'm surprised he didn't put it down in a more definite form as to whether things would succeed. Perhaps he preferred to let Adrien think about ways that things could go wrong so that he could correct them. After all, there always the chance that The Mule will come somewhere along the way.

[silveradept]

The first time around, I'm inclined to think of Adrien as the villain, because Rorsarch and Nite Owl 2 are chasing him while investigating the mask-killer incidents. Considering what he does to protect his plan (as well as the paralells between him and the character in the story that we see in parallel), he qualifies for the job. Even if he's striving for a greater good and follows "Got to crack some eggs to make an omelet."

If he succeeds, then he'll be written as a hero, rather than as a villain, but that's because of the nature of history. I suspect he'll fail, though, and then he will be a villain. So, I'd say Adrien.

[silveradept]

Spoiler discussion:

Publishing the journal may or may not affect the populous - it depends on the intelligence of the boy to draw the conclusions through to their proper ending - he could do as Dr. Manhattan does and bury the last, most important truth - that Adrien engineered the death of two or three million people in an attempt to bring the world back from the brink of atomic destruction. If he prints the final truth, then the world community has to decide whether it was acceptable. And, with the hoax exposed, things might go back to the way they were.

Even if he just paints Adrien as the mask-killer, then Adrien's going to watch his empire crumble. At the end of the book, Adrien cried "Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair!" But we saw what happened to the other person who said that. I think that's the reason I think Adrien will fail the most - I don't think he has a contingency plan if things go astray. He doesn't have the Foundations to correct the course when it veers.

[greyweirdo.livejournal.com]

I think he can correct the course, if he choses too. He's the world's smartest man, he'd have to have some sort of forward planning. Alsom remember where the journal was sent if you will. They didn't have the best reputation.

Um, don't read this cause there's spoilers and stuff.

[greyweirdo.livejournal.com]

Um, yeah, there are not cuts in comments, so don't read this!

They'll never remember Veidt, unless he's fully exposed. A crucial part of his plan is that he gets no credit. In a way it's the ultimate petty move, he's the only person who'll ever know that he saved the whole world (until the rest of the group shows up) I'll grant his behavior puts him at the head of the naughty line out of the five of them, but Rorschach is right behind him.

I've heard a compelling argument that Rorschach is the villian of the story, or even Dr. Manahattan. Ror is a full blown nut job who upon hearing the world was saved immediatly leapt to the conclusion that he has to unsave it and Dr. M could have done almost anything at any time, but chose not to. (These are the freeze dried versions you understand)

Personally I prefer the idea that there was no villian in Watchmen. There are just people who are each trying to do their best to save the world. Veidt thinks he's doing whats right, Ror's sanity can only be messured on a sliding scale of lavitory rodents and gwano an Dr. M is sort of off in his own little world where nothing people do really matters anymore. Really only Night Owl and Laurie are what I'd call heroes and their whole story is almost completely taken up with personal issues.

I really liked the idea that there was no clear villian though. There was no one who was trying to destory the city or take over the world, that the one who could be called the villian based on his actions, thinks he's being the greatest hero ever.

I also find the line "I'm not a Republic Serial villain" particularly funny because at that moment he's dressed exactly like a Republic Serial villian.

[silveradept]

But they're the only ones who'll print it. Plus, Rorsarch is still out there. Between him and the people who believe the printing, there's possibility that the plan can collapse.

Re: Um, don't read this cause there's spoilers and stuff.

[silveradept]

Well, my first instinct is to say there are no villains in the story. But you asked it in such a way that suggested you wanted me to name one.

Rorschach is not a villain. Insane, perhaps, but no villain. He doesn't do enough in terms of realy evil things to qualify.

Dr. M, possibly. But I don't think of him as one, either, considering he did try to stop Adrien at the very last, once he figured out what was going on. If he had full knowledge and didn't do anything, that's one problem. But since he had only partial knowledge, he's not really a villain, either. I suspect he can be induced to assist here and there, where he's supposed to.

But it's really a matter of perspective. If you side with Ozymandias's utilitarian principles, he's a hero. If not, he's a villain.

[greyweirdo.livejournal.com]

Ror got blowed up by Dr M, his journal is still out there though. Also Night Owl 2 and Laurie are out there as well, even if they are kinda on the run.

I like to think that the world back slid about 9 months later when there were no more aliens, that the son of Nixon's VP was elected and the US invaded some oil rich country under dubious circumstances and that the VP's son talked big about facing the enemy while he was too chikcen shit to face a 42 year old Mom from California.

...

Or has that been done already?

Re: Um, don't read this cause there's spoilers and stuff.

[greyweirdo.livejournal.com]

It just that you mentioned a villian in the first part and I've heard a few different ideas about who the villian (if indeed there is one) actually is. People have very different ideas about that book.

I think Ozy's idea was sound but his actual plan and follow through was a bit wack. No to mention when he threw Millie out of the high rise and then sent the giant sheep into NYC before Llewyellen left and stuff.

Re: Um, don't read this cause there's spoilers and stuff.

[greyweirdo.livejournal.com]

If you side with Ozymandias's utilitarian principles, he's a hero. If not, he's a villain.

Actually it strikes me that Ozy's idea is very much in the current right wing ideal. We'll lie to you and hope you think it's the truth and the bigger the lie, the bigger the truth we're hoping you see. The biggest lie of all, that aliens invaded; is supposed to bring about the biggest truth, world peace.

It must be pointed out that even Alan Moore admits that he was and I qoute "In a bad mood throughout the 80s"

Re: Um, don't read this cause there's spoilers and stuff.

[silveradept]

The problem with a lie like that is that a lot of people don't like the insult to their intelligence that accopmanies it. If the truth gets out, people are often furious first and rational later, after they've done the damage to the process being done. Much easier to be forthright to the people than to hide from them.

Re: Um, don't read this cause there's spoilers and stuff.

[silveradept]

Well, in terms of the narrative, Veidt is a vallain. He's the person that the protagonists are trying to stop - and he does commit an act of villany. That it's supposed to serve a higher purpose doesn't mean it's still not an evil deed.

Yeah, Ozy snapped a bit. We always thought it would be Millie who was going to do things, but apparently the Conspiracies couldn't contain Ozy when he did his work.

[silveradept]

Right. Meant journal, really. Other superheroes are criminals - not likely to be believed.

As for the future timeline - nah. Watergate breaks, Nixon resigns, and everything happens according to our world from there, now that Dr. M's gone, the journal is considered worthy of comic books and not much more, and the Nite Owl/Laurie duo have to hide for the rest of their lives.