Part Two: Musing of a different sort

[silveradept]

Recent events in the 'net world and the real world have me thinking again. You may run like hell now, if you so choose. You'll make it to the bunker before I say anything that could be strange.

Anyway, I was pondering the decision made by D.C. Simpson recently to express herself as a female to the public and society at large. (Have to be careful with those pronouns - first thing I typed was "himself", and then I realized, while that would make the point and cause the appropriate double-take, it's not really worthwhile. This probably figures into a point somewhere later.) The reaction from the commentators in his journal has been overwhelmingly positive and accepting. May be a matter of preaching to the choir (and her statement that she has nothing to fear from the comments probably confirms this), but the case is that Dana finally decided that it was time to tell the truth.

Welah knew much earlier than he told me. He, too, eventually decided it was time to tell the truth and stop hiding. These are decisions with large ramifications, many positive, many negative. I've met a lot of people who don't orbit anywhere near what American society considers "normal", for whatever reason. These people are interesting, and they have considerable courage to be what they are publicly.

What I find equally interesting, though, has been my reaction (perhaps more accurately, lack thereof) to these decisions and new information. Specifically, it doesn't bother me. While it may take time to make my pronouns reassign themselves properly (the example above proves that point), there's nothing intrinsically odd or bothersome to me about someone identifying with a different gender. (Until I get hit on by another man, and realize it as such, the jury's out on whether or not I'm disturbed by that. I don't think it will, though, once I get over the initial shock of someone thinking I'm cute.) Nor about someone who is attracted to their same gender. Or someone who identifies as androgynous or hermaphroditic. There's no intrinsic revulsion at finding out any of these things. (Must be Ann Arbor's influence. Around such people too much, starting to think they're okay and normal. I'm straying from my roots and young-age influences. Does it show too much?)

That's interesting, as it appears to be a counter-normal thing by itself. At least, according to the ways that people voted, according to the ways that people act, according to people who claim a religion, contort it, and then their programming on the airwaves. They have enough like minds that they receive enough in money to continue their plague. According to what one hears at water coolers, reads in newspaper stories of brutal degradations, according to what one sees on the faces of those still trying to find the courage to live their own lives without fears. According to what the apparent normal is, being okay with these things is very not normal (sinful, even, some of them might say, or "morally relativistic").

It shouldn't be. The injunction "Go and sin no more" comes after the declaration "Let the one who is without sin cast the first stone." Those who would throw stones are reminded that they, too, have non-normal behaviors, things that their society would probably frown upon. They are called to work on their own difficulties before condemning others for theirs. "Brother, there is a speck in your eye." only works when you've taken the plank out of your own.

So, in any case, I wonder whether this really is not-normal, or whether I'm just not seeing how normal it is, and if it isn't normal, then is it a good deviance or a bad one? Both from the "society" standpoint, as well as personal standpoints. It's stuff worth thinking about - so tell me what you think.

Comments

[greyweirdo.livejournal.com]

Normal is a highly subjective point of view. Some people think it's normal to wear cowboy boots and hats even though the closest they ever got to a horse is when they saw one on a farm they drove past on the freeway. Some people think it's normal to only eat raw vegitables and only drink spring water. And of course sopme people think it's perfectly natural to sit at Ebay all day and find new additions to their Happy Meal Toys collections.

There are enough people who do each of those things that the people who like to do them need not be alone or made to feel like freaks. It's also a matter of degree on your part, how much do you feel a need to meddle in the affairs of others?

Most people who get up in arms about other people's sexuality are just people who have some sick need to meddle in the lives of others. They want to control someone else to make themselves feel strong. Those who don't need the illusion of strength can avoid meddling.

As for pronouns, well those are a bit tricky as you've got to make certian shifts in how you think of a person. Granting that it's not particularly easy to suddenly put a person in a different collum than you had them in is a bit difficult, you get used to it after a little while.

But in the end, normal is really like truth, it's something you internally decide for yourself given the facts. You take all the facts, and process them to come up with a truth, which you then settle down with. Normality is sort of like that, it's whatever comes on a regular basis.

Either that or your just a freak too and therefor can't see what's wrong with all of this... which sort of proves my point anyway.

[greyweirdo.livejournal.com]

God what a rambling babbel that was. I need to make my comments in Word and tyen cut and paste them. Only being able to read a few lines in this little box means I can't take the comment as a whole. Christmas Crackers I do go off in random directions sometimes.

[annaonthemoon.livejournal.com]

As for pronouns, well those are a bit tricky as you've got to make certian shifts in how you think of a person. Granting that it's not particularly easy to suddenly put a person in a different collum than you had them in is a bit difficult, you get used to it after a little while.

You'd be surprised. Once someone expresses how they want to be referred to how easy it is to transition into that.

Of course, you can argue that in some cases, it was something you already knew and were waiting for the other to come out about it.

[bladespark.livejournal.com]

That was quite interesting to read. Especially as I've found myself in a similar place, mentally. Like yourself, I find that I am not bothered by people who have non-standard gender or sexual identifications. I know quite a few of them, and they're nice people. I find it very easy to relate to them as well, particularly given my own relationship with Aidan and Yin.

But occasionally I find myself being bothered by my not being bothered, if that makes any sense. My belief system, religiously speaking, tells me that God meant for people to be the gender they were born as, and for sexuality to be between husband and wife. That's the... well, I guess the ideal.

It's not an ideal world though. In an ideal world I wouldn't need the Gaurdian. The trama that led me to create her wouldn't have happened, in an ideal world. Sometimes we have to find our own ways of dealing, coping, and expressing ourselves in this messed up world we live in. We have less than ideal circumstances.

And if a person finds happiness and fulfillment in their life by doing something that is a transgression of what I know as God's law, it's not my place to judge. That's between them and God, and it's none of my business. I do plenty of things that aren't quite right myself, after all.

So I guess I'm just going to go on with not being bothered by such things. I think I'll be happier that way, and so will the people around me.

[tinchen.livejournal.com]

For a moment I wasn't sure if "The reaction from the commentators in his journal" was intentional or not.

I just don't care if people are female or male or neuter or female in male bodies or the other way round. It's a nice feature with WoW: while the characters in game can be male or female, you won't know if they are male or female IRL. If society would be able to percieve people as people only, as individuums and worlds within their own right, if this labeling would stop and you could just live like you want to, like, read, eat and feel what you really feel you should, DC wouldn't need to see a therapist.

[tinchen.livejournal.com]

Did you see this test-thingenie with the colourful boxes? I scored as "very female" there, but my ex also. But that wasn't a problem. Other "guys" tend to have a nervous breakdown, because they see their "manliness" attacked.

[silveradept]

Well, when there are these "traditionally male/female" tests, I consistently score on the "female" end of the spectrum. That doesn't bother me, either. Nor, though, do I feel like I'm a woman trapped in a man's body. I just behave and think in ways that aren't the hypermasculine standard for "guys".

I'm a sissy in a lot of senses, but I'm okay with that, because I'd rather be a sissy than not feel anything.

[silveradept]

It wasn't intentional, but I think I'll leave it there, as it makes a point by its existence. Caught the first one, missed the second. Says how much I still need to change my pronouns around. I'll get there, though.

[reaverta.livejournal.com]

"Live and let live, just let me have the same honor - and do no harm, in the process." - This is, in a sense, one of the core tenants I grew up with, or as best the way I can describe it. Homosexual? Fine. Othersexual? Hey, it's all good. Me? Oh, I'm straight as a plank. That's okay - we'll just oggle motorbikes instead of babes. Or whatever.

...And yet, I cannot stand 'poofs'. Who, idly, are quite capable of being heterosexual. Go figure.

I think the trick is that my definition of 'normal' relates to who they are, not what they are. And even 'normal' is nothing special. Heck, I don't even want to date someone 'normal'... so. Hey, what the hell.

[annaonthemoon.livejournal.com]

I've grown up with too many people in the GLBT community (and well, slightly being one myself, i suppose) that nothing phases me. I think it's slowly becoming a more mainsteam thing in society.

Of course you know about my best friend and her quest to be female, after trying to be male for most of her life. The day she told me was the day I quit referring to her as a he, unless I was in "mixed company" - that is, friends from HS who she still hadn't told yet. I was honestly surprised with myself how easily I transitioned into the feminine pronouns for her, but perhaps it's because pronouns and gender just don't bother me.

It's funny too, being close friends with so many gay guys, and hearing them use gender pronouns on each other. A real "queenie" type will get called a "she", a more masculine guy, "he". What do they call themselves? a lot of them interchange the pronouns. It's also, from my expereince, perfectly normal and OK to call a gay man "she" and a lesbian woman "he". This also could just be the circle I hang out with, though.

I've taken those gender quizzes that someone mentioned too, and I generally get an even split, or a close to even split. Am I transgendered? No. Am I androgynous? No. I'm simply me. I wouldn't even consider myself a "tomboy" -- I'm just capable of hanging out with boys and liking what they like, as well as hanging out with girls. Lots of my boy friends love me because of how flexible I am, and well, who doesn't like looking at girls with another girl? (hehe)

Anyway - One thing that I learned (*gasp* i learned something?) in all those farging HD FS classes is that Gender is a more mental thing, where as your Sex is your physical body. Which is also why I HATE the damn BRFSS surveys that ask people for their "Gender", when we need to know what their physical body is. I've already spoken to Trans people upset that there wasn't an option for them, and I had to explain to them what we specfically were looking for (physical body, because of the health q's...don't want to ask a trans woman if she's ever had a pap smear, because she's lacking that equiptment, same for asking a trans guy if he's ever had a prostate exam). The rest of my co-workers? Yeah, they have no idea how to deal with it.

"Let the one without sin cast the first stone" - It's so true. No one is truely sinless, even if you are a devout catholic who goes to confessional 3 times a week. The point is, everyone does something that someone else doesn't like, and the general idea is that we, as a whole, need to start accepting those differences and embracing them.

As for the gender-identity of DC Simpson....I really never took much notice. They draw a good comic, and that's all that matters to me. Male or Female, DC is still going to have the same drawing ability.

I've never done anything to make people think I was the opposite gender, but even in the crfh community, there's plenty of it. A few people were quite a shock at BC last year, let me tell you.

And of course, when I introduce Erin to people who have only HEARD me speak of her...they get confused.

OH - and you getting hit on by a boy? Let me just tell you that I do know of at least 2 bi/gay men who think you are attractive based on a photo.

[silveradept]

Well, I've been consistently scoring as a feminine mindset for a while now - matters not to me, as I said above, because I think the masculinity "standard" is repulsive.

Pronouns are rather inflexible in the language - while there are official usages for gender-neturality, they're all based on gender-specific sorts of pronouns. There's not a gender-neutral pronoun by itself that I know of.

As for being attractive, well, that's good to know. Not sure what I'll be able to do with it yet, but it's still a good thing to know.

[annaonthemoon.livejournal.com]

There's not a gender-neutral pronoun by itself that I know of.


The German language has one....no, wait..i think thre are 5 or 6 neutral pronouns.

(supposed to be doing work, will reply to the rest later)

[sharpsight.livejournal.com]

M) >.< I demand this photo.

[annaonthemoon.livejournal.com]

*grin* I won't release a direct link without Silver's permission, but i will tell you if you poke around the webalbums I made last week....

[sharpsight.livejournal.com]

M) Hmm. Where are they?

[annaonthemoon.livejournal.com]

look on my LJ to the post where I have "photos finaly" or something - with the album of ben and mellie's wedding is my trip to ann arbor.

[sharpsight.livejournal.com]

M) http://annaonthemoon.livejournal.com/937050.html ?

*follows links*

[sharpsight.livejournal.com]

M) Ahh. *nods; smiles* Thank you.

[annaonthemoon.livejournal.com]

*grin*

[wanderingbhikkh.livejournal.com]

vis a vis pronouns: My best friend's gender can only be described as confused. So I've taken a split: Whenever I speak about him in English, I refer to him as male, whenever I speak about him in French, I refer to him as female.

[torakiyoshi.livejournal.com]

I think the part that most of the church conveniently forgets (being on the inside and knowing this very intimately-- and how important it is to my own church NOT to forget) is that "whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it" (James 2:10 - click for context (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James%202:5-14;&version=31;)). That point is not made by the biological brother of Jesus and first pastor of the Jerusalem church to condemn outsiders. Instead, it is made to admonish insiders to not act "holier than thou."

I like the bumper sticker that says, "Christians aren't perfect; we're just forgiven." It can become an excuse to sin, but that is not it's intent. It was meant as a demonstration of transparency: "I am no better than you, but I found a way to get out of the trap."

Have the best

-=TK

[silveradept]

I would like to see more forgiving by people who are publicly visible (as well as those who aren't) on these things. As bladespark notes above, such things ultimately are between a person and their god, if they believe in one.

It's just strange to see people concentrating on such minor issues when there are much more major ones yet to be taken care of.

[torakiyoshi.livejournal.com]

Such is the sinfulness of mankind. But we must also learn to forgive those leaders who have gone astray.

Have the best

-=TK

[sharpsight.livejournal.com]

M) 'commentators in his journal' : ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Youth_Liberation_of_Ann_Arbor : Interesting.

Who is Welah?


Normality: in some societies it's normal, in some it's not. Probably there's a spread.

In terms of 'good' or 'bad' deviance: my immediate reaction to someone being bothered by it is to want, strongly, to shoot him/her/it/[whatever] in the face at close range. Draw your conclusions from there.

N) *considers* For my own take on the goodness/badness: prejudice is, ideally, to be avoided. That's about as far as I can go, as from that point one runs into problems with ideologies and the like (and whether one should be prejudiced against people whom history would suggest it wise to be prejudiced against).

[silveradept]

As I said, M, pronouns often take time to readjust. That was an accident, but it'll stay there to help the point out to the observant.

welah is a very good child-and-adulthood friend of mine, currently on the west coast of the country, whom I miss very much.

Regarding prejudice, N, I think that one can analyze the past and draw conclusions as to whether certain behaviors and ideas are to be replicated, modified, or dismissed, depending on their impact. There's no prejudice in that other than any biases that the recorders of history have. (Which can be significant.) It is possible to approach things like the Inquisition with an open mind, analyze their reasons and results, and conclude that they were harmful and should not be repeated.

[sharpsight.livejournal.com]

N) Hmm. *nods...* But, in a search/development process of a GUP, one might wish to find more general rules for application.

It's like psychology: just analysing people and using how they react as future references is inherently inferior to building working/nearly-working/might-someday-get-close-to-working models, comparing them to actual human behavior, and then altering them (or not) based on the differences.

The end result shouldn't be a compendium of all the different conclusions for all the different situations one has mapped out, but rather a formula of some sort that one can apply to any such situation and get a definitive--and moreover, accurate--conclusion (that one would have arrived at by correctly mapping out the situation). Efficiency/Speed of application is also preferable.

M) *curiously follows link*

[silveradept]

We'll see how much the forumla can be condensed, when it is found.

[sharpsight.livejournal.com]

N) *nods...* And first, you have to find/develop it.

[yarha.livejournal.com]

Dude! (used gender-neutrally, of course). For a few years, I maintained I was female on the internet, as 'Yarha' is my nomme de plume/nomme de guerre. It used to be just a persona which I used to entertain people, which, for various reasons, I maintained as female. Let me state that I'm a straight, albeit unsuccessful, heterosexual.

Several years ago, I came out of the closet and stopped maintaing the persona. So, I completely understand the whole 'coming out' thing. Some people still haven't recovered.

WTF? It's only gender. There are more important things.

Yarha, Pronouns are a Bitch, However

[silveradept]

Clarification question... Yarha-the-female ceased to exist?

[yarha.livejournal.com]

Yarha-the-fictional-character ('Yarha' started out as a roleplay character) ceased to exist. I write as myself, now, though under the same nomme-de-plume.

It's always been my intention to work Yarha-the-character into either a book or novel, writing as 'Yarha' the author. Unfortunately, technical writing has always taken up my time.

Yarha, It's All Rather Complicated

[silveradept]

Ah. That makes mroe sense to me. Thanks for the clarification.